If any of that were true why does Israel forbid foreign journalists from reporting facts on the ground? Why did they kill more journalists than all prior conflicts in human history?
It's more or less the same with any modern military. Ukraine for example doesn't allow journalists (foreign or not) in the more dangerous areas near front lines, with rare exceptions for journalists that they invite and escort.
It's perfectly reasonable to not want unrestricted journalists leaking information about military assets, or possibly getting themselves killed. Most people seem to understand (or at least not care) when Ukraine imposes press restrictions. The question should be, why are people suddenly outraged when Israel does roughly the same thing?
That is not the same. When the US invaded Iraq there were over 3000 journalists in Iraq. None of them were in firing zones to be used as human shields. That said, there are still journalists operating in Ukraine even today.
How many journalists does Israel allow in Gaza, anywhere in Gaza? The answer is 0. Worse still is that they appear to directly target journalists for elimination, as became evident when they shot a rocket at a building stairwell that contained only journalists trying to transmit video and then shot a second rocket at the exact same location shortly after to kill any first responders. The entire event, both rocket attacks, was caught on video that made it out of the enclave.
Iraq isn't the most useful comparison because it wasn't feasible for the US to fully control access; determined journalists could find ways into the warzone. They still tried to encourage embedded journalists, who they could protect and also censor, so that they weren't tweeting photos showing artillery locations or what not.
There are journalists operating in Ukraine, but they're either
- embedded/escorted (IDF did a bit of that also)
- in safe ("green") areas far away from fighting (Gaza is too small to really have those; Ukraine is ~1650x larger)
- or just ignoring the laws, and illegally reporting from dangerous yellow or red zones
> or just ignoring the laws, and illegally reporting from dangerous yellow or red zones
I skimmed Wikipedia [1] but couldn't find any mention of laws in Ukraine that forbid reporting from certain areas. I see laws forbidding statements of support for Russia, and laws enabling censorship. Maybe I've misunderstood: are you referring to anti-trespassing laws in general, and not specifically about reporters?
> The rules bar journalists from working in so-called “red zones” deemed most dangerous, and require a military press officer’s escort to work in less dangerous yellow zones. Journalists can work freely in green zones.
> ow, when ukraine shows that they are strong, people on the internet look horrified how russian soldiers are annihilated with fpv drones and scream about how such things are war crimes and should be stopped.
Sorry who are those people and where I can find them? In my bubble Ukraine is still the victim who lost 20% of its land, and Russians are still bombing the country daily, both military and civilian targets. All male Ukrainians are basically prisoners in their own country who can only pray they don't die soon.
Hamas as financed, and helped grow, and fostered as an entity, and rid of its more middle-of-the-road competitors, by two you-know-who parties in this farcical tragedy, parties that comically keep identifying themselves as one another's mortal enemy... glad I never set foot in that madhouse in 20 year and most likely won't ever again.
Not sure if I understand it correctly, are you saying:
1. western countries bomb civilians, kill them, put them in jail without court, have ethnonationalistic racist state where some races has more rights and others have less, steal land from others, bomb neighbours because someone is hiding there, ignite wars, lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals
or
2. are you saying Israel didn't commit any of this?
> Not sure if I understand it correctly, are you saying: 1. western countries bomb civilians, kill them, put them in jail without court, have ethnonationalistic racist state where some races has more rights and others have less, steal land from others, bomb neighbours because someone is hiding there, ignite wars, lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals
Sir, have you read about Western countries' imperial and colonial past, even over the last century alone? What about just the last 2 years, as they stood by Israel in every meaningful way while from time to time 'expressing concern' and issuing statements that 'international law must be respected' as the hypocrites that they are? The original commenter was correct: Israel fits right in.
I understand that appealing to myths of noble intentions of western populations is ultimately a good thing if it gets them to act more like it, but a part of me can't resist pointing out that it's just a myth and it's never been anything other than 'might makes right'. I agree with your goal, just please don't frame it as if western countries are these beacons of morality when they're anything but.
They were not framing it that way. They were proposing a retort to someone else that suggested Israel is a civilized western country.
The person you are responding to was saying that for that to be true (Israel = civilized western nation) that either it is civilized to do all those awful things or that Israel is not doing those things.
Obviously, both are false. So you are responding to someone who agrees with you all the way.
Israel doesn't target civilicans specifically, but they don't really care about coladeral damage. i don't see any problem with this
what do you mean "put in jail without court"? give me examples
whaat is the problem with having an ethnonationalistic racist state? and also, arabs have the same rights as jews in israel, because israel is a civilised western country where the law has power.
>lobby/bribe powerful country politicians to reach their own goals
yes, they do this. and who is to blame? you, who elected the said politicians, and allowed it to happen, or israel, that utilized its power to achieve its goals?
i don't support israel lobbying, and i wish it didn't happen, but everyone is so easyly fooled, and it is so obvious, that we can no longer say it's israels fault. it's the west who has to do something about it.
> 2. are you saying Israel didn't commit any of this?
some of the things they didn't comming, some things that did commit and it is not a problem as you present it, and some things they did comming, which indeed as a problem. but there's no perfect state.
i hate israel, but definitely not because it bombs hamas terrorists.
That number is just recovered dead bodies. There are people in the rubbles, still, there are people who died or will die from accompanying factors - such as mass evacuation, living for years in a horrible camp, hunger, diseases, destruction of hospitals and infrastructure that otherwise would kept those people alive.
And Israel definitely conducts very questionable actions, similar to genocide, such as withholding any humanitarian aid for months, and them distributing it only through one controlled organisation, that distributed it in just a few spots, with machine guns pointed at people. Thats one of the main reasons Netanyahu is wanted by ICC.
This is all not mentioning actions in the West Bank, where settlers with army support drive people away from their homes, destroy and take over the land. This is not what a “civilised” nation does.
Well, it's certainly not limited to bodies that were confirmed by officials in a hospital or morgue. A lot of the casualty reports were from a Google form, or later, a self-hosted form (https://sehatty.ps/moh-registration/public/add-order).
> Well, it's certainly not limited to bodies that were confirmed by officials in a hospital or morgue. A lot of the casualty reports were from a Google form, or later, a self-hosted form
Yes it is. Literally on that form "Not registered with the Palestinian Ministry of Health". This is a form to report missing people, the number of the dead are people identified by a doctor.
Though that number has stagnated because all the hospitals have been destroyed by Israel.
No, that's just saying that the form is for reporting casualties that are not already registered with the MoH.
Hamas' casualty numbers came from hospitals and morgues only in the first few months of war; that hasn't been the case for a long time. This isn't controversial - Hamas has been fairly open about incorporating "reliable media sources".
I think only Hamas knows the breakdown for their latest numbers, but earlier they used to acknowledge how many casualty reports were based on online form submissions. For example you can see some old data in Figure 11b here:
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/sites/default/files/pdf/...
Sorry, I'm not going to take seriously a report by an AIPAC funded institution from a guy who's basically spent all of Israel's genocide talking about how fake the Hamas numbers are.
Basically all his reports have one narrative "It's not that bad, and actually it is all terrorists that Israel has killed".
NGOs that have managed to get aid workers and doctors in (which, btw, are often killed by Israel) all say that the death toll is a massive undercount. [1]
There, of course, is a solution here. It's for Israel to let in aid works and stop killing them [2]
AP: "As Gaza’s hospital system collapsed in December and January, the ministry began relying on hard-to-verify “media reports” to register new deaths. Its March report included 531 individuals who were counted twice, and many deaths were self-reported by families, instead of health officials." https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-cas...
Many of the worst genocides in history were by "civilized western countries". Just look at what happened in the Americas (many native ethnic groups are now entirely extinct), in the Congo, Ireland, British oppression and famines in India, and so on and so forth.
Nearly every genocide starts with "we're civilized. That means we're doing the right thing. Some casualties are unavoidable" When someone thinks like that, you know they're doing the wrong thing. You know you cannot trust them. You cannot reason with them because they refuse to see their actions objectively and have ceased to see others as equal to themselves.
