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EU’s plan to digitising travel documents might affect you (edri.org)
21 points by type0 on July 17, 2023 | hide | past | favorite | 28 comments


I’m all into new tech, cutting edge science discovery and in general getting the digital useful to the masses.

Things like this, social credit scoring and Central Bank Digital Currencies (CBDC) are something that, once deployed, will likely worsen our lives in the next few years.


complain while you still can


"Travellers who don’t use digital travel credentials must not be discriminated against. This condition includes that border controls for travellers with physical documents must be equally accessible and sufficiently staffed to enable travel checks in a reasonable amount of time."

Is it a reasonable amount of time today? If digital documents allows someone else to go faster is that discrimination?


It's not, my RFID chip in my passport broke, and I couldn't use the automatic border control in Spain, making me almost miss my flight because they were severely understaffed. I waited for 2h, while the automatic checks were ~5 minutes.


"Ma'am, we can process your papers as soon as Frank gets back from vacation."


You already have to agree to biometrics processing for entering most places that you could travel to, so I'm not sure it really is that bad if the EU side collects them, too, and not only US, Singapore, China, (and probably plenty others).

Similarly, I thought that having a digital covid vaccination certificate but with the option to print it out yourself was pretty reasonable. Authenticity was checked via QR codes that are signed by a government certificate. I could imagine the same tech being re-used for ID cards.

But despite how the article makes things sound, I am 100% sure that passports aren't going anywhere, simply because target countries require them to enter.


There are 3 points at the end of the article which are basically demands, stated but not supported at all. Why should people who refuse to use technology be coddled? Why should we blindly refuse all change?

If they have an actual objection, they should make it. Anything else is just opposition for its own sake.

The points:

>Travellers must not be forced to use digital travel credentials. The possibility of using physical travel documents must be guaranteed permanently and not just for the “near future”, as the European Commission is proposing.

>Travellers who don’t use digital travel credentials must not be discriminated against. This condition includes that border controls for travellers with physical documents must be equally accessible and sufficiently staffed to enable travel checks in a reasonable amount of time.

>Travellers who don’t use digital travel credentials must not, under any circumstances, be affected by the border control technologies required for checking digital travel credentials. Policy options “where all travellers are monitored and their biometric data are processed”, as the European Commission is considering, must be ruled out.


Asserting that everyone should just buy and have a working smartphone at all times and internet service or you can’t travel is by far the most elitist, out-of-touch with reality comment I have seen on this site.

Congratulations.


Again though, you have not answered the question.

I am not particularly opposed to a paper only process for the tiny number of people who have some legitimate reason they cannot use the main process. But that isn't what is demanded so why should we go beyond the bare minimum to allow those users access?

Have some loaner phones (or similar devices) at immigration and let people get on with it? No, people who refuse tech must have all the benefits and not be left behind despite explicitly choosing to be left behind? Why?

Also, there is nothing "elite" about owning a smart phone. Especially not if you travel internationally. Pretending otherwise is just silly.


This is not a refusal of tech for the sake of refusal of tech. Nor does it have anything to do with being left behind.

A smart phone is a very powerful and practical device. But if we don't take care to prevent it, a smart phone can easily become a dangerous surveillance device. This downside needs to be regulated effectively.

I'm not saying you necessarily need to be afraid of your smart phone in the long term. But currently it still feels very much like a wild west, with everyone making surveillance and privacy land grabs. The protections are -as yet- sparse.

I think lawmakers need to be more careful and coordinated on this. Possibly I could see people carrying sensitive credentials on their smart phone, but only if it is then also illegal to search it. Or -vice versa- make it legal for law enforcement to search a smart phone, but then make it illegal to store sensitive credentials on it.

Allowing both at once is a potential recipe for disaster, because searching the phone can easily lead to a compromise of the credentials (think eg. private keys).

To answer your question directly: I think it is pretty sane for people to want to wait out the regulatory landscape here, and not immediately pick up every novelty for the sake of novelty.

[ That said, possibly the overton window on carrying papers has shifted a bit in the past 100 years. At one point people thought passports were a temporary WW I thing! : https://theconversation.com/when-world-leaders-thought-you-s... ]


I think we're conflating a few different issues here.

Smartphones are Powerful surveillance devices whether used for passports or not. I would like that to be more regulated (or regulated at all in fact). But that isn't what's under discussion.

And since a (paper) passport already involves being tracked as you cross a border having a passport on your phone adds no extra privacy breaches.

Similarly I am subject to warrantless, suspicionless search at all border crossings already (including my phone). So using a phone for my passport costs me nothing here either.

I don't object to general wariness about surveillance, in fact I encourage it. But this is not a form of additional surveillance...

To me it seems people are just hiding behind catch phrases like "elitism" because they don't like the idea but have not actually bothered to consider it (not you, but other replies here).


* If the phone is compromised, now people can access your passport outside the border zone too. This can include critical personal information (PII) that is not intended to be shared.

* Not all borders in all countries track you. Specifically EU internal borders typically do not.

* Not all borders in all countries subject you to a routine warrant-less search, not all borders conduct a phone search. (IMHO no borders should, but that's a different story). Specifically EU internal borders typically do not.


We need less of our lives to enter the digital realm, not more.


1. Again, that's your opinion, others like me disagree. Either cover WHY you think that is true you are sort of saying "I don't like it and I don't have a reason"

2. This is about the smallest imaginable amount of your life being added to the digital realm. All the data in question is ALREADY in there, on government computers when you get a paper passport and that is what is actually used at border crossings. No one cares about the paper passport except as a receipt for a DB entry. So nothing is actually being moved digital. We are just turning off some printers...


That official identity documents requiring a smartphone is the "smallest imaginable amount" is questionable. With this proposal I can not even go on vacation without a smartphone.

Maybe I am old-fashioned, but I still think humans should be able to do basic life actions without a smartphone.


Right not you cannot go on vacation without having all your info on a government DB shared with 100 other governments. In future the same will be true but instead of a paper receipt you will get one on an app. That is all that is changing.

And you can still do all this with your paper work. It will just take longer, and be more expensive and if you lose it you're screwed.


you still get bottle neck at security scanning anyway so idk why rfid passport is needed


It's harder to fake the paper part (non-rfid ones just use a barcode or text reader). That's the only read difference between older/rfid ones. They're all basically the same as shop barcodes: the customs guy scans it, then his computer looks you up in some DB. You could be looked up just as quickly by doing name/nationality/dob etc. Or your smartphone. But people like paperwork...


Weird we still have to have a "document" of sorts given how well biometrics work. At most you should state your name and go about your day.


Not everyone has fingerprints. I don't remember exactly how it happened but my mother-in-law has terrible fingerprints, anything involving biometrics is a massive pain in the ass for her.


There’s still voice, face and iris and one can always fallback to a fancy piece of paper than can essentially be a QR code anyway.


If it works so well, why state your name at all?


Perfect is the enemy of good


Title editing fucked up the grammar…


Fuck no. I burned out the RFID on my passport (microwave for 1 second) on purpose to prevent scams, identity theft, and invasions of privacy. I will use a paper passport and only a paper passport, not some virtual shit that requires a third-party app, a phone in working order, and reliance on the security of the stack between them.

If your phone dies or is damaged or stolen, you become (temporarily) stateless and get a chance to remake The Terminal. Fail.


> I burned out the RFID on my passport (microwave for 1 second) on purpose to prevent scams, identity theft, and invasions of privacy.

Good luck travelling. I would not do this. Not being able to check a password by a border guard may be a reason for detaining you. They already have all your data on their database so destroying the chip won't help you with privacy, but only make your life harder.


My major issue with RFID in Passports is that Nationality is NOT an encrypted part of the publicly-broadcast Document No.


don't do this.

keep your passport in something that will block scanners if you're worried about identity theft. they make passport holders lined lined with metal for that reason.

frying the chip means a simple customs check when crossing a border will turn into a long discussion and sit down. long discussions are never a good thing with customs. doubly so if you admit to "frying with a microwave".




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