Alex Hormozi was on a podcast recently talking about how you should learn high volume sales skills in a scenario like a gym chain, car dealer, etc. Do that for a few years and then take those skills to sell the most expensive thing you can to make “real” money with better quality customers. Seemed like reasonable advice and aligned with your experiences...
Selling stuff is an extremely outward-focused career though, and it's its own thing. You have to be really careful due to the creeping boiler room effect. You can lose track of who/what you are inwardly very easily, due to almost no attention given your own values, and in effect a strong counter-incentive for attending to your own stuff.
I have career-coached a lot of top sales people and most of them have been very clear that time spent convincing other people is exactly that much less time spent on personal goals, education, etc. For introverts, the #1 complaint is that it focuses you on your weakest side as your career foundation.
Most also ended up gradually substituting sales education for specialty education, without realizing what they were doing, or that they had a choice. So you get people with tremendous, but less-interesting people skills hitting their '40s and going to tech boot camps because that's where their heart was all along.
I had similar experience myself and if I could go back in time I think people skills learned in basic IT work were plenty. Let sales people be sales people, hire them to do sales, and stick to one's own favorite things...otherwise yeah if you like sales, knock yourself out.
"creeping boiler room effect" -- I never saw this phrase before. I like it. This is the reason that I personally avoid sales people (outside of work / socially).
To me: Sales is fundamentally about upselling -- selling you more than you need. How can people do this 8 hours per day, then go home and pretend they are not a sales person? Every GOOD sales person tells me they are "only like that at work". No, they are not. As a result, I try to avoid them! In social settings with sales people, before you know it, they are trying to manipulate you. It is so tiring.
Doesn’t it matter what they are “selling” after work hours?
I was a salesman 20+ years ago and still engage in up selling my friends. But it’s usually to get them to engage in healthy activities like working out, going for a walk, or eating healthy; or to get them to try a new experience like tasting a new food or being more honest/kind to their loved ones.
Sometimes I wonder if I’m exhausting to them or they appreciate the good intention.
Some people insanely detest being manipulated - even if it is for their own good (that's at least what the manipulating person claims). I personally observe this "manipulation-detesting" character trait in particular to be prevalent in hacker circles.
By the way: this is also a reason that I see why so many hackers date differently from the typical population since dating is about manipulating the other side to love one.
Q Biggie: You hit the nail on the head. Most hackers I know are thinking "run away" when they see / hear a sales person. "Oh fu-k, what are these people trying to sell or make me do?" When I re-read this post, I feel the same about senior technical management that does nothing more than powerpoint, email, meetings, and phone/vid calls. The last time they wrote code or did anything technical was (frequently) never, or so long ago that the technology sounds like an archeological dig!
Then I have to conclude that a lot of dating advice that one finds is plainly wrong: "show off your best side" is for example an instance of "manipulate the other person to believe that you are of higher value than you actually are (and thus a relationship with you is a better deal than it actually is)".
I'd agree that it's wrong. If the person you're dating isn't comfortable with you being yourself, then it's probably the wrong person. Presenting a fake impression of yourself to convince them to stick around seems like a poor foundation for a relationship.
I appreciate that you have good intention, but I don't like it. I sincerely try to avoid sales people. Only when absolutely necessary. And dating sales people is hell. I made that mistake a couple of times. Only with real distance could I see they were always try to manipulate me to do something for them. It was exhausting.
I think the hacker (non-sales) style is to lead by example, not spend so much effort trying to convince others with words. "Deeds lead" for hackers.
For example, instead of trying to directly convince a very unhealthy co-worker to eat less junk food, I might talk about my own struggles with junk food eating... or say that I am trying to cut down. Or exercise more. Or whatever. But focus on myself and my own actions and the messages they emit... rather that trying to directly manipulate the other person with words only.
