I haven’t seen it but the article makes it sound like, when you ask for it to make a change to your code, that’s the point it puts the ad in.
I think (but not 100% sure) that it also puts it directly into your codebase, without you knowing ahead of time, without your permission. If that’s correct then it’s truly heinous.
Just to try and understand the decision, an analogy that’s coming to mind would be like saying a van manufacturer wouldn’t have liability if it’s used in a bank robbery. However if the manufacturer sold it with the intent for the buyer to use it for bank robbery (the manufacturer having the intent in this case, as well as the robber themselves), then they could become partially liable.
In this case, there is a safe harbor where ISPs can avoid liability by enforcing a policy against their customers that eventually cuts them off for repeated infringement. Cox stepped outside of this safe harbor by not following their own policy. But the court says that doesn't automatically make them liable.
Does this mean the entire enforcement regime is now more or less a paper tiger? It's sufficient to have a process that satisfies the letter of the law, but you can simply not follow through and enforce it.
> It's sufficient to have a process that satisfies the letter of the law
No.
Let's take an example of 401ks.
Any company that has a 401k has to pass non-discrimination testing to ensure their plan doesn't favor highly compensated employees over non-highly compensated employees. This is done through Actual Deferral Percentage and Actual Contribution Percentage tests. Just doing these tests can be very costly.
If you don't want to do these tests, then you can follow a 'safe harbor' action where the company automatically contributes x% for everyone. If the plan executes the 'safe harbor' action, then they automatically pass the two tests above.
However, if they don't follow through that plan they may still not have violated the nondiscrimination policies if they end up passing those two tests.
So to bring it back to the circumstance here, because Cox was not following their own processes which would have afforded them safe harbor they do not get the benefit of being automatically protected from the action. Then the court goes to see if Cox was sufficiently involved in the violating actions in order to be liable, and the court found that Cox was not.
So going back to the line...:
> It's sufficient to have a process that satisfies the letter of the law, but you can simply not follow through and enforce it.
Not at all. Because it was not enforced, Cox lost the safe harbor protections and had to defend themselves.
With 401ks and financial instruments in general, it's cut-and-dry: there's either a payment, or there isn't, and there's a whole accountancy industry that supports that.
With DMCA claims, it's an adversarial accusation with inherent unreliability built into the collection mechanism, usually submitted by third parties. The process doesn't lend itself to the same kind of auditability and accountability as securities and investments.
An example closer to home is those file sharing sites that allow you to pay to "download faster" which skirt very close to the line, if not go over it.
But Grokster et al openly advertised that you could get all music "for free".
Where the gray area is would be something that arguably can ONLY be used for piracy (an example of what this would be is hard to imagine, but maybe a device that can ONLY duplicate encrypted blurays and cannot do it for non-encrypted ones - yes I know there are arguments even here via fair use/backup/personal copy) and/or something that is substantially advertised as for piracy - something that nobody would have a reason to buy unless they were pirating, perhaps - something where free/open source similar software exists but can't be used to pirate?
> An example closer to home is those file sharing sites that allow you to pay to "download faster" which skirt very close to the line, if not go over it.
I know some file sharing sites do ip logging so if DMCA strikes happen, they can simply ban the ip too.
Is there anything tangetially important to these file sharing sites too after this decision by Supreme Court?
I can imagine that as long as they operate legal things as well and dont do things under the intention of just being used for piracy (from their sides but we all know the reality)
Then, they don't have to do anything other than just accepting the DMCA notice.
There are definitely server providers who are more privacy oriented while being affordable who only get involved not even with DMCA but rather some court ruling within their specific country which can be permissive.
So is it possible for now for a file sharing provider to say that we follow the DMCA but only if you can get it written from a local judge that we will remove these files for the purposes of Privacy for our end users?
Yes, as much as I understand it. You have to either make a van that's specifically tailored to performing bank robberies (a door-smashing attachment at the front, a pulley to quickly get the safe box inside, etc), or at least advertise it as such ("Will get you from the robbery site faster than police can react!"). Otherwise, it's just a van. Owning a van, or selling a van, is not illegal because it could also be used to break law. (One's hands can be used to break law, but this does not lead to a liability for merely possessing hands.)
There already is a specific law shielding gun manufacturers from liability from simple sales, which Democrat heavy states and locales do a lot of work to test the edges of and chip away at: the PLCAA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_... which was passed in 2005 in light of mendacious lawsuits taking up a notable amount of courts' time.
Yeah. The courts are inconsistent here. If they want to hold service providers responsible, they also must make arms producer responsible, and politicians too.
Courts are not inconsistent, they are following the law. Like most cases decided by SCOTUS, they are deciding on the rules set by Congress and courts have ruled time and time again, that Constitution gives Congress almost sole jurisdiction for determining how Copyright law functions.
For copyright law, Congress does not expressly allow secondary liability for third parties FOR COPYRIGHT unless the party induced the infringement or the provided service is tailored to that infringement. In this case, Cox was not cutting off copyright infringers BUT since their service could be used by same infringers for valid use, they didn't have to.
For arms producer, Congress has exempted them for liability and courts have ruled, yep, Congress gets to make the rules here.
Congress could overturn both rulings by changing the law.
This is what we want. Congress makes the rules, courts interpret but don't make new rules.
Because intent isn't something that you can acquire from the actions of third parties
Second, the VAST majority of guns in the US sit in gun safes and closets and never shoot anyone.
Finally, shooting someone is not necessarily an illegal action -- gun manufacturers market their products for self defense or sporting reasons -- I have never seen one market their products for use in criminal acts.
> Cox neither induced its users’ infringement nor provided a service tailored to infringement; accordingly, Cox is not contributorily liable for the infringement of Sony’s copyrights
> I doubt even 1% of the guns have been used in a crime.
Guns are used to inflict harm. Why would the arms producer not be held accountable? He produced the gun. The gun is the tool to cause harm, injury, potentially death. If service providers are held responsible for users, arms producers must also be held accountable. Financially too.
>> Guns are used to inflict harm. Why would the arms producer not be held accountable?
Notably by criminals who have never, and will never abide by the copious amounts of federal and state laws that currently regulate how people are able to use guns. If that is the case, how does holding manufacturers responsible for something completely out of their control make sense?
Its like saying car manufacturers should be responsible for drunk drivers who kill others in collisions. Because they should've known their cars would be used by someone to do something dangerous and against the law?
The gun companies have incentive to sell as many guns as they can, to the consumerist base of gun hobbyists.
There are 500M guns in the US because it's a hobby based on buying and collecting.
Due to the amount of guns in circulation, it is common for guns to be stolen.
Therefore, there are more "illegal" guns in circulation due to the consumerist nature of gun owners, and the companies making money on selling these guns.
Without a large amount of guns in circulation, there would not be a similarly large amount of illegal guns in circulation, as they almost all came from a factory somewhere.
I like guns but I am so tired of people acting like the 2nd amendment insists it's their right to treat firearms like goddamn funkopops.
In states with legal marijuana, we set limits on the number of plants one can keep on their property, yet there is no limit to how many firearms one can poorly store for a slightly competent criminal to come collect under their nose. No liability for poorly storing them either unless it's in the immediate vicinity of a toddler.
I dont think the constitution has an amendement that guarantees freedom of Marijuana ownership. I think that's the main difference. This is akin to saying that you need a license to drive to why not be required to have an ID to walk around on the streets. The difference is rather simple, one is protected by the constitution and the other isn't.
Also I don't think the consumerist gun ownes commit a lot of crimes with their guns. Unless they are a demographic that is known to be prone to lose or get their guns stolen super often, I don't see how they cause any real issue in term of gun violence. I agree that it is really cringe to see, but they are actually usually responsible in terms of ownership, storage, etc.
You are oversimplifying the situation beyond the entire point of this ruling --
Cox internet is sometimes used to commit copyright infringement, but it is designed and marketed for legal purposes. Guns are also sometimes used for illegal purposes, but they are designed and marketed for legal purposes.
Even the lowest estimates (the National Crime Victimization Survey) estimates annual defensive gun uses in the US at 60-80k per year. Highest estimates are at around 2 million.
But even then, most usage is at ranges, and far outstrips crime usage.
I don't think it matters in the light of this ruling. Cox could have argued that 99.9% of their data packets are Netflix and downloads of free Linux ISOs, yet neither court nor the ruling cares.
To win, Cox did not need to prove that they sold their product without intent to infringe. To win, the plaintiff would have had to prove that Cox had intent. The difference in burden of proof is in practice massive.
> where overwhelming amount of USED guns are used to accompany crime
I do not think this holds up to a factual analysis if you look at any cross section of defensive gun use reports. I don't think that parts actually relevant here though. If you were to use a similar standard as the USSC court applies here: Impressions don't matter to qualify for inducement. The action must be actively invited.
So, merely selling 'with intent' for the van to be used in a robbery I don't think meets the bar as the opinion is written. In particular, I read "...which can be shown only if the party induced the infringement or the provided service is tailored to that infringement;"
In that vein, merely selling a tool even if a predominant use or intention of that tool is infringement, the infringement must be actively induced or invited by the seller. This is also affirmed in detail in the USSC opinion: "The Court has repeatedly made clear—see Kalem Co. v. Harper Brothers, 222 U. S. 55, Sony, and Grokster—that mere knowledge that a service will be used to infringe is insufficient to establish the required intent to infringe."
This is the primary part of the opinion, the first 7 of 27 pages. I'm still reading the rest and will update when finished. (Concurring Opinion and Dissents I believe)
===
The meat of the opinion has some interesting elements as well:
* "Internet service providers, such as Cox, have limited knowledge about how their Internet services are used and who uses them. They do know which IP address corresponds to which subscriber’s account, but they cannot distinguish one individual user from another...However, because online infringement is so widespread, pursuing each individual infringer does little to stem the tide.": mere IP logs are not enough to establish liability, perhaps. More importantly, it is opined that individual fishing expeditions dont actually serve the end of eliminating infringement. This does not absolve individual liability, but it becomes important later.
* "Holding Cox liable merely for failing to terminate Internet service to infringing accounts would expand secondary copyright liability beyond our precedents ... The Fourth Circuit’s holding thus went beyond the two forms of liability recognized in Grokster and Sony. It also conflicted with this Court’s repeated admonition that contributory liability cannot rest only on a provider’s knowledge of infringement and insufficient action to prevent it.": This points to another case where Circuit and District courts have been ignoring the instruction of higher courts, in this case, inventing new liabilities where none existed. This doesn't go so far as to repudiate entirely the idea of fishing expeditions having teeth, but it places a clear guardrail around expanding liability without laws establishing such.
===
The Sotomayor concurrence on judgment states that the Justice does not believe the methods used by the majority opinion are correct, but still agrees with the judgement because of insufficient information presented by Sony. I think the analysis gone into in this section is flawed, but it is also not precedential since it is not the Order part of the opinion. I am also out of time to poke at that part for the moment. It does relate this case to the closest recent big case on secondary liability though, that of Smith & Wesson Brands, Inc. v. Estados Unidos Mexicanos, so its worth reading even if the justifying analysis I think does not fit.
The big difference I guess is whether you think negative jurisdiction (limiting what the government can do) vs positive jurisdiction (further enabling the government) is more important, but considering HN and the exhortations against divisive commentary, I'd rather not dive into the weeds arguing that part here.
I think a better analogy would be crack pipes sold in minimarts in a box that says "for tobacco use only". Crackheads estate sues the pipe mfr says you knew people were using it for crack and are proximately liable for facilitating the drug use.
Sure, and aluminum foil can be used to smoke heroin. But they have primary obvious uses. That's the difference, vs knowing 99% of customers are going to use it for something nefarious. Even better example would be whippets or NOs meant for culinary or automotive use, but also usable for teens getting high. If manufacturers are aware and turn a blind eye, they can become liable.
The problem is these companies are typically natural monopolies. So it's not as if I choose this provider because they were lax in their copyright enforcement. I'd literally have to sell my house and move to accomplish this.
I doubt reading it would have helped. The MAGA folks and anyone adjacent to them on the political spectrum are so propagandized right now it's nearly impossible to have a rational conversation.
Honestly, the way this administration has behaved makes me think someone there is obsessed with playing Total War and thinks that’s how the real world works. It’s all about winning battles and painting the map red, white and blue (Greenland, Venezuela, now Iran) with no thought to what they want to achieve beyond that.
I think that criticism legitimately undersells Total War players (and thereby oversells the administrations competence).
Total War involves an understanding and exploitation of high ground, rivers, and choke points. Like just about any war gamer, with a glance at the map of Iran one arrives at The Pentagons stated wisdom on the matter for decades. Geography says you invade all of it, or cede the straight.
We have this issue many paces in the world and people just don’t get it. North Korean nukes are a threat, but the unstoppable artillery barrage that would kill tens of millions in the first minutes of the war is The Issue. You can’t have snipers on a mountain ridge over your house and feel safe.
Dick Cheney and the Bush family spelled it out over and over. They like money and oil.
> Correct, the term "pronatalists" is in scare-quotes, suggesting that their belief/concern is fake.
Or it's genuine, but almost completely trumped by other concerns, which I think is the more psychologically plausible explanation than conscious deception. They only pursue pronatalism without contradicting their other priorities, which makes their actions ineffective.
Or their belief is twisted: they're pronatalists, but not pro your natalism (e.g. they're really only interested in a master-race of SV founders reproducing).
Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies" but always taking a back seat to "I need more money".
> Pronatalists are outwardly concerned with birth rates while simultaneously railing against immigration while simultaneously begging for more H1-Bs. The implication is really "we need more white babies"...
No, and I think that's a slander. If you look at the numbers, birth rates are falling everywhere. There's no fecund area pumping out babies at a rate to use immigration to solve the labor component of the birthrate problem. And even the most fecund area may drop to sub-replacement rate in a generation or two, if the follow the patterns of everywhere else. It really is a global problem.
And the progressive immigration solution is kind of imperialist: exporting problems from rich countries to poorer ones, who are even less equipped to deal with them (e.g. "let's export our trash to Africa and plunder its youth").
I mean Elon Musk is not really subtle about his white supremacy and how it dovetails with his calls for more babies. I don't think he'd even be upset by reading this.
I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy.
I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off.
I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
> I'm well aware that birth rates are falling in the rich world. It's a universal problem across all wealthy countries regardless of immigration or social policy.
> I'm also not certain that this is some kind of urgent issue we need to do anything about. It seems like a natural cycle. And maybe we're better off letting the global population taper off.
Denial is certainty a response people can have to difficult or ideologically inconvenient problems.
> I think you're also off base on immigration policy but that's a separate topic.
How so? Liberals/progressives can be parochial and ignore of misunderstand the world outside their borders, falling back to their own little dogmas. Today, the math just doesn't work out for immigration being the solution for declining birthrates globally. And it'll just get worse as sub-Saharan Africa follows the trends of other regions.
I don't think anyone is saying immigration is a solution to falling fertility rates. I was pointing to the irony/hypocrisy of the people worried about there being too few Americans also worrying there are too many immigrants. And while I'm aware there are some negatives to falling population, there are also positives and the entire situation is manageable without resorting to exotic solutions. I still don't understand why it's urgent.
And while I'm sure most everybody can have misapprehensions about the world beyond their observation, I'd reckon that liberals are far less misguided than conservatives and also ask why the hell is that relevant? We're talking about people who are coming here. I don't really need to know what's happening Haiti beyond knowing there are people who desperately prefer to live in the US and are seemingly adjusting very well and definitely not eating anyone's cats.
I think a good revising chamber is critical to good democracy, though the Lords recently have been playing silly buggers around the Employment Rights Act and ignoring the Salisbury Convention (which is that they shouldn’t block manifesto commitments).
I do think the USA goes too far, which has led to frustration among the public and contributed to Trump and the resulting behaviour. I’ve said before that I think the US House of Representatives should have a mechanism to override Senate speed bumps, though not without effort. The idea is to encourage the legislature to compromise but maintain the “primacy” of the House if the Senate is being obstinate. Something like the Parliament Act, is what I’d have in mind.
The Senate in the US is the upper house and can override the House. There is no "primacy" of the House in the US system. The only place where anything like that exists is in impeachment (which is for any member of the executive or judicial branch, not just the president) where the House simply has more votes than the Senate (each member gets 1 vote). Those types of hearings are pretty rare (usually).
Okay, though to be fair to me, you said just after
> and ignoring the Salisbury Convention (which is that they shouldn’t block manifesto commitments)
which is what attracted my question.
Thanks for the link. I haven’t watched it, but I will observe that a lot of the modern legislation that comes out of the commons should properly attract the attention of the Lords, as it doesn’t get nearly enough attention from the commons.
I totally agree, the upper chamber can and should make amendments to legislation. In this case, they made a generally good amendment to the Employment Rights Bill (allowing "at-will" dismissal up to the first 6 months rather than the initially proposed total ban).
> I would blame depression, but I have a great psychiatrist who has me on antidepressants, anti-anxiety meds, and mood stabilizers.
Allow me to be blunt: you’re still suffering the symptoms of depression. I’m not a psychiatrist but you likely have what I’d think of as “situational depression” (as opposed to ingrained depression). Once you either fix the cause (loneliness) or adapt to it, the depression will lift.
I think it’s worth saying that you need to learn how to be comfortable in your own company. That’s the easy bit, the hard part is figuring out how. I don’t think there’s a trick you can do, you need to put in some work. Maybe take your dog walking to more remote places than just a dog park? I guess if you’re in America this might be more difficult but are there any green spaces within a few hours drive you can spend the weekend at?
This line stuck out to me as well, but my follow up thought was different.
I’ve had friends who have been on cocktails like these, and one of them once said something like, “I’ve been depressed before, and this is not that. I’m not depressed. I don’t have the emotional capacity to be depressed. This is more like a total emotional blank slate.”
She was basically a robot for a few months. Incapable of really any emotions, including sadness, anxiety, frustration, etc. Suffice to say, she also didn’t have the emotional drive to push her towards positive things like deciding on how to spend her weekend free time.
Thankfully she’s changed her meds and is feeling overall better (if, admittedly, at the price of some emotional stability).
I recall a lot of this comes from Java 5/6 where I think passing function pointers around was difficult, if not impossible. Back in those days, I had many a conversation with a friend who would ask "can Python do pattern/feature X?" to which I'd respond "it doesn't need to."
> If anything it's the other way round, if you're not talking about business domain modeling (where data structures first is a valid approach).
And even there, the data models usually come about to make specific business processes easier (or even possible). An Order Summary is structured a specific way to allow both the Fulfilment and Invoicing processes possible, which feed down into Payment and Collections processes (and related artefacts).
I think (but not 100% sure) that it also puts it directly into your codebase, without you knowing ahead of time, without your permission. If that’s correct then it’s truly heinous.
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